Difference between a 996 GT2 and a 996 TT

[Andre]

I've driven a 560 horse / 700-something Nm TT in the rain yesterday evening, borrowed from a customer (with his permission :D ) of my Porker friends at APP near Amsterdam. That was close to awesome. Breaks are bad though. Too small for such a heavy car.
Anyway, while I was there, we discussed the differences between the GT2 and the TT, even went through the parts ordering information. It's not as spectacular as you would think.
The engine is basically the same GT1 derived unit, altough a GT2 has a double oil drainage system.
The 4WD system is gone.
The supension frames front and back are from a GT3 as are the suspension links. Rear frame has metal inserts instead of rubber.
The front hubs are from a GT3.
The rear hubs are the same as in a TT and a GT3.
The gearbox is basically the same, differences are a partly different housing (no need for the 4WD shaft), steel synchro's, an oil cooler and an oil jet system, lsd 40/60%, different ratio's.

I probably have forgotten something, but I'm sure someone will let me know... :p

All in all, the question is wether these modifications justify the price difference, which for used cars are like 120k Euro for a GT2 vs. 75k Euro for a TT. Imagine this: buy a TT, take off the 4WD system, add a GT3RS LSD, change the suspension frames and arms to GT3 or GT3RS, exchange rubber bushings for aluminium ones, add gearbox oil cooler. Exchange front bumper and rear spoiler for GT2 ones. That will give you a car close to a GT2 although it's not a real one. Add up the cost of these parts + the labour to put them on and the labour to reverse it. It'll be a heck of a lot less than the current price difference.. Disadvantage: warranty issues and hassle. What's the value of that... ;)

[Guy]

Price difference new in UK now is £37k, probably not worth it, hence why few sold.

Price difference 2 yrs old is about £10k-£15k, which is much better and a truer reflection of the value.

I was going to get a Turbo originally, since the 4wd is useful in the UK and having back seats is more practical. However, when I had the chance to buy a GT2 for about £10k more than a Turbo of the same age/mileage I jumped at it, since it's faster, lighter, rarer and better looking.

If the gap had been £30k then I would have got a Turbo.

A turbo with uprated engine is a devastating roadcar, though I'd leave the 4wd in place..........

Guy

[Guy]

Don't forget that the Turbo is not available in Clubsport guise, so you also need to figure:

Removing some interior to lighten it (rear seats, spare wheel).
Bucket seats
Rollcage
Harnesses
Fire extinguisher

There is also the added weight of the sunroof and many other goodies that a Turbo is laden with. The Porsche site now quotes a Turbo as being 1590kg DIN, whereas the GT2 was 1440kg DIN for series one and 1420kg for the new series 2.

Theres also the PCCB, which is standard on a GT2, although of course there is considerable uncertainty about the reliability of the discs.......

Guy

[Andre]

Absolutely true Guy.

The financial gap between GT2 and TT for 2-year old cars seems to be smaller in the UK. I haven't included the brake system because either way they have to be changed in my perspective.

[Henry CSL]

Andre, I believe there are alot of differences in the engine department and only from what I have read the gearbox is completely different.
Wheels are custom to the GT2 as well. Start adding everything up and you can understand why its more. On the flip side, you get bucket loads of goodies with the 996tt that the GT2 doesn`t get.

Buy a 996tt and spec it up to GT2 including the PCCB`s and bingo! Bye Bye to at least £115k + (don`t forget the X50 engine upgrade is circa £10k)

The same could be said of the standard Carrera against the GT3, how much to spec that car up???

There is a big difference in price yes, but there is a big difference in what the end package is for. The GT2 & 3 are track day cars not long distance cruisers and if you "bastardise" a 911 then its as bad flushing money down the toilet.

I guess you can probably apply all the above to any make of car, a good example is the Merc 500SL and the AMG version, a few more BHP,thanks to the blower, slightly bigger wheels and uprated brakes all for £30,000 more.

At the end of the day it`s all down to personal choice and if you can afford it!

[elms]

As a main car the TT would be the sensible choice every time especially with the UK climate as it is. But if you were buying as a second or even third car the 'less is more' type feel of the GT2 or 3 would be fantastic to as a B road or track day toy. But that is the sensible way to go (but if we were sensible we would all be driving Mondeos' and Focus'!) ;)
As for the price differential the £30k or so premium for less with the GT2 can be a bit hard to swallow when buying new, but as a pre-owned buy the steeper initial depreciation can make it a attractive buy.

[Andre]

Andre, I believe there are alot of differences in the engine department and only from what I have read the gearbox is completely different.

Engine: the only difference is, that the oil is not only drained from the camshaft area, but also from the crank area. The rest is the same, both GT1 based.
Gearbox: casing adapted for 2WD instead of 4WD, steel synchro's, cooling, different, shorter ratio's. The basic gearbox is the same unit, 996 TT and GT2 as well as 993 GT2 !

Wheels are custom to the GT2 as well. Start adding everything up and you can understand why its more. On the flip side, you get bucket loads of goodies with the 996tt that the GT2 doesn`t get.

Yes, wheels are custom. Would they fit 8-pot racing calipers ? If not, other wheels would be required in my diabolic plans :cool:

Buy a 996tt and spec it up to GT2 including the PCCB`s and bingo! Bye Bye to at least £115k + (don`t forget the X50 engine upgrade is circa £10k)

X50 upgrade = different ECU map, more boost... value = 10...wft ? :confused: All of a sudden I see a farm appear in a shady environment....

The same could be said of the standard Carrera against the GT3, how much to spec that car up???

I don't quite see how you can say the same, because there's a bigger difference between the Carrera and the GT3 vs. 996 TT and GT2.

There is a big difference in price yes, but there is a big difference in what the end package is for. The GT2 & 3 are track day cars not long distance cruisers and if you "bastardise" a 911 then its as bad flushing money down the toilet.

Perhaps true, but remember that everything can be reversed apart from holes in the carpet and even that can be reversed at a cost. Also you need to remember that in Holland the price difference is multiplied by the stonking 45.8 % luxury tax (less depreciation of that tax in case the car is not new) !

I guess you can probably apply all the above to any make of car, a good example is the Merc 500SL and the AMG version, a few more BHP,thanks to the blower, slightly bigger wheels and uprated brakes all for £30,000 more.

At the end of the day it`s all down to personal choice and if you can afford it!

Not only if you can afford it but also if you want to pay for it..

One thing I'm quite sure of: whatever you do, it won't be as bad as a certain top-end car from a certain Japanese brand...

[Henry CSL]

Andre, I still believe in keeping the car as standard as possible because the Warranty means so much to me.............I can`t live my life at back street (or farm yard ;) ) tuners anymore..........that is now history.The GT2 is worth every penny to me and even though its 250BHP down on what I was driving before it`s 1,000,000 times better :)

When I was at the Porsche Factory last year I was told that the GT2 engine is totally different from the tt and they don`t even put the "full" GT2 lump in to the tt even when you pay for the X50 upgrade. I do have some info somewhere about the exact differences but I will have to do a bit of research over the weekend.

I guess the question is would you buy a tt or a GT2 for the "Ring". The sensible would take the first option and me? well you know the answer to that one already. ;)

What about you?

[Guy]

Andre,

Other factors you haven't mentioned include in comparing GT2 vs Turbo are:

K24 Turbos instead of K16 (ie get 550bhp without changing them)
More efficient intercoolers (by 10%)
Air scoops moved further outside car
Rear spoiler air-ducts directs air into intake
Main cooling radiator is angled and has an exit in negative pressure area in front of bonnet to improve cooling and also reduce front lift (as per GT3RS)
Adjustable anti-roll bars
Better suspension geometry
Bigger wheel bearings and uni-ball mounts
Adjustable rear wing angle
Stronger gearbox input shaft
Rolled arches

Plus the ones we've already mentioned:

Better dry-sump
Steel synchros
Wider wheels
Bucket seats
Cage
Lightened interior
No sunroof
No PSM (which cannot be fully disabled on a 996TT)
Oil cooler
Oil jet
Better rear diff.
+ others

The main point is that at the end a Turbo with £30k spent on it is still a Turbo and only worth Turbo money plus a few grands (remember mods are virtually worthless come re-sale), whereas a GT2 is always a GT2 and will be worth more.

My 2p

Guy

[Guy]

Or you could buy the 600bhp Twin-turbo GT3 for sale here:

http://www.williamloughran.co.uk/porschemenu.html

Complete with 8 pot brakes and carbon panels.

It is rhd, but if registered in the UK with rhd, I'm sure it could be used in europe without a problem...................who'd expect a dutchman to drive a rhd car?

Guy

[Henry CSL]

...................who'd expect a dutchman to drive a rhd car? :D ;) :D

I LMFAO big time............ ;)

[Andre]

Well, yes, RHD car driven by a Dutchman. (smilie intended here but not allowed..)

Have I told you there are actually a few Dutchmen driving a Skyline ?????? :eek: :D No I haven't but I have now....

As for the comparison Guy: part of your arguments are covered by the GT3 components in the GT2. The turbo's would be changed in my case anyway (diabolic plans :p ). The price of the GT2 intercoolers btw are NOWHERE near the HKS prices we're used to...... :eek:

I'm not saying a GT2 is a bad choice. Heck, it isn't. On the other hand, and think about this carefully please, could it be the case that there exists an overreaction regarding modifying a car wrt the Skyline nightmare ?

Oh well, wtf. We're all human beings. And we've got a Porker. So, who cares ?

[Dino]

Just one observation to make...and then I promise to butt out :p

Really does pain me to see that so many people have gone out of the GTR experience with such sour feelings. By this statement I'm in no way trying to say anything about your Porsches...great machines, no questions about that. But what I'm getting at is that if you guys had owned a GTR in Japan you would not be feeling so bad, trust me. The nightmare it is to own a car like that in the UK/Europe must be quite a stress, I can imagine. Never knowing who to turn to in times of trouble, having the suspicion of being ripped off at the first possible opportunity, being faced unfriendly rivalry between owners and tuners, spending tons of money on modifications that don't yield the expected satisfaction...must be, well utter sh1t really!

I can understand why most of you have gone for alternatives. I'm sure I would have done the exact same thing in your places but just remember that situations & experiences change drastically if you find yourself in the right place. Thats all really....though I would give my point of view. :)

[Guy]

Dino,

What you've said is spot on.

Having a GTR in Japan is a totally different situation, for many reasons.

Guy

[Blow Dog]

I'd like to point out that the GTR 34 is one of the greatest cars on the planet. It's all-round ability outperforms anything in the same category under £60k.
Spacious, fast, beautiful, desire, leading edge, kudos - all these things I can attribute to the GTR.

My reasons for trying the Porsche were precautionary.

Cem

[Guy]

Andre.

I'm only defending the GT2 'cos I've got one and I believe if you wanted to race them then it would be better to start with a GT2 as base car.

That said, if I faced the price differential you did, I would buy a Turbo (without Sunroof) and then remove the spare wheel, rear seats, lower centre console, fit a cage and carbon bucket seats and then get a 550bhp upgrade from Ruf, Manthey, Roock or someone similar. Oh and if I wanted medium size brakes, then I'd go for the 350mm GT3 6 pot fronts which are only 2,500 euros. If I wanted massive brakes I'd go for the 8 pot Brembo racing brakes, which use 380mm discs and two pads per disc (though this set-up is about 10,000 euros). (Be careful there are two sets of brembo 380mm calipers the Le Mans and Evolution and they are very different and both need 19 inch wheels). Oh and I imagine you would get some new suspension from 'you-know-who'........

Guy

[Blow Dog]

Are you completely willing to wipe off any warranty cover?

Cem

[Guy]

Cem,

I'm assuming Andre is talking about buying a 2000 car that is out of warranty, since it's for racing/serious track use.

I would not do it myself though..........

Guy

[Henry CSL]

On Mobile.de you can get a 996tt for say £50k (75k Euros).

Strip it out totally and add brakes,suspension,rollcage and a bucket seat circa £10k and there you go, a very rapid "Ring" racer for £60k or the price of a series one GT3 and a couple of bacon butties :)

Is that what you`re thinking Andre? If not, it`s my idea, I thought of it first ;)

[daved6]

I agree that its hard to justify the price difference on paper, but when you drive a GT2 it certainly feels "special" compared to the turbo, which although it is still a fantastic car, its simply not the same driving experience as the GT2 ;)

[Andre]

Guy

You don't have to defend the GT2, I'm not attacking it; just putting some thoughts on the table to get some feedback.

To heavily modify a car within warranty is not the way to go.
To modify a GT2 within warranty would have to be done so that warranty is preserved.
The you-know-who suspension will be there irrespective of what's going to happen. ;)

Henry

Yes, that's one option. Oh, and upgrade the engine to something acceptable.. :D